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Rudolf Thome
in conversation with Gudrun Max and Karlheinz Oplustil in Berlin on 27 January
2000 "Rio Bravo" versus "High Noon" |
Interview | In your film Hanns
Zischler plays an artist celebrating his sixtieth birthday. You yourself
turned sixty just after you finished filming. Is your new film an autobiographical
work? No more and no less than the others. What prompted me to write the screenplay was not really my birthday. In 1998 I saw Theo Angelopoulos film "An Eternity and A Day" in Haifa. I found the film extremely annoying. Two months later, I was in Paris showing "Tiger-Stripe Woman Waits for Tarzan". I was asked what my next project would be and my answer was: no idea ... I saw Angelopoulos last film and was so irritated by it ... who knows, perhaps Ill make a film about an ageing artist, too. Except that Id do it completely differently - not at all sentimental, with deep significant meaning and full of artistic pretensions, but light-hearted, funny, ironic and very simple. So, when I cloistered myself away to start writing, this was the first thought that entered my head on either the first or second day, and I suddenly thought: why not? Another thing that occurred to me was the fact that when Howard Hawks saw Zinnemanns "High Noon", he was so angry that he made "Rio Bravo". I read this in the Sixties and Ive never forgotten it. The next thing that fell into place was the title, which came to me, I think, on the very first day. A films title is always very, very important to me. I need a title so that I can start writing; its a kind of a goal, a focus, so that I know where Im going when I begin to write. Like someone wandering about in the desert making for a distant oasis - hoping of course that its a real oasis and not a mirage. Dante and the South Sea Where did the term Paradiso come from? Whenever I set about writing a screenplay, I start by making handwritten notes in an exercise book. Whenever Im abroad I go to all the supermarkets to see what kind of exercise books they have there. In 1998, I was invited to present "Tiger-Stripe Woman Waits for Tarzan" at festivals all over the world, and so I collected quite a number of exercise books. As I was about to start writing this film I glanced at this pile of books, wondering which one I should use to write in. The one I chose was yellow with the word "paradiso" on the front. There was a picture of a palm tree on the cover and a stylised depiction of a South Sea island. I was trying to think of a title when I suddenly remembered the exercise book cover and thought: thats a great title. And so it was. Theres a part of Dantes "Divine Comedy" entitled Paradiso. Were you thinking of this, too? As soon I had settled on the title "Paradiso", I looked it up on the net and, of course, Dantes "Divine Comedy" appeared. Theres one character in the film who was to have been called Beatrice, like Dantes muse, but now shes called Berenice. I was toying with this reference. In Angelopoulos film, Bruno Ganz is, I believe, older and, at the end of the film, he dies. Is this an important difference between the two films? The characters in my films are usually much younger - especially the women. In the past, one of the criticisms levelled at my films was: why dont you portray people of your own age. Actually, what people say to you really does matter and so I thought, alright, Ill do it! Now if Im making a film about a man aged about sixty, its almost impossible to avoid using things from my own life. Its something Ive always done. One only has to remember all the aquariums in "The Microscope"; they were actually here in my apartment. As for my sixtieth birthday - that was a just a ruse, really. Instead of celebrating my sixtieth birthday, I thought, why not make a film about a man celebrating his sixtieth birthday. Is this how you would have wished to have spent your own birthday? No. I didnt do anything like this; in fact, I didnt celebrate it at all. I just went away. Did you ever want to meet up again with all the women in your life? No. However, the actors in this film are almost without exception actors who have all appeared in my earlier films. I havent brought together my seven women, the seven most important women in my life, but I have brought together actors from my other films to work on this film. This was a deciding factor at the casting stage. Did you consider asking Uschi Obermeier to work on this film? We didnt think of using Uschi Obermeier. Perhaps because it would have been too difficult. She lives in Los Angeles now, and the films budget was very small. It wouldnt have been easy. Irony and deeper significance Was Angelopoulos film a constant source of friction whilst you were writing your own screenplay? No. At least not consciously. Actually, I didnt think about the film at all. How I write a screenplay is to go away somewhere quiet and out of the way for twenty-eight days. I spend the first ten days sitting there writing notes by hand and, on the eleventh day - no matter what Ive thought of up to that point - I start writing the screenplay proper. During those first ten days of note-taking I thought about the Angelopoulos film on the first day; then came the title, and on the third day it occurred to me that here was the perfect opportunity to fulfil my dream and create an interior monologue. Ive wanted to do this for ages. There was a wonderful interior monologue in Robert Bressons "Pickpocket". Its this monologue that keeps you very close to the main character in the film, the pickpocket. The proximity to a character that an interior monologue provides would, I thought, be a good idea for this film and for this man celebrating his sixtieth birthday. Something else I wanted to do was to create a portrait of an ageing artist. A portrait must, necessarily, show what used to be. Angelopoulos uses flashbacks to achieve this. However, I dont use flashbacks in my films and so, how was I to show this persons past without using this device? My solution was to show people who had spent a part of their lives with him. Portraying these characters would enable me to show a different section of his biography. I also liked the idea of keeping the time span of the film as short as possible. One day would have been best of all. However, a film called "Paradiso" with a lead named Adam, a female lead named Eva and even a snake meant that I had no alternative; these ironic elements simply had to be elaborated upon. There also had to be seven women - although it was very difficult thinking up seven stories for these women. I decided to have seven days to emphasise the fairy-tale elements but also the ironic aspects of the films structure. I hope that audiences will see it like that too. The Nuns Son The appearance of the snake in your film is, I think, purely ironic, because its just a harmless German snake, whereas the snake in the Bible has horrific consequences, namely, the expulsion from paradise. What I wanted to do was re-use a motif from "Tiger-Stripe Woman Waits for Tarzan", but place it in a completely different context. A little part of me also wanted to provoke those who accuse me of filming the same scenes again and again in my films: people in bed together, having breakfast, walking along the waterfront, making a fire. There are indeed similar scenes in all my films, even when the screenplays have been written by different people. I am toying with the motif of the snake, certainly, but it does also have a function in the film as a whole, even if this function isnt clearly defined. It was important that Billy is the one to catch the snake. Why Billy? Billy is the most problematic figure in the whole film. Theres a pretty heavy conflict going on between him and Adam. But you dont really find out exactly why Billy is angry with Adam. They havent seen each other for thirty years ... Its like almost everything in "Paradiso". The background stories can only be assembled indirectly, from little fragments. Nothing is explained directly or made explicit. At the beginning of the film, when Billy sends an email to Joschka Fischer - who appears to have been something of a paternal figure in his life - he writes very directly about what he feels about his father. But when he gets into the car and drives off with his wife you can see that he is furious, and rather anxious. His wife says to him: "Dont be afraid of this old man". And he retorts: "Thats easy for you to say, hes not your father, is he". His father is one great big unsolved problem. Because he never looked after him. Whatever might have happened, the fact is they havent seen each other for thirty years. Actually, it seems there wasnt anything, really. You must remember that Adam lives apart from his family. He lives in his lakeside house, but his wife and children live in Berlin; they only come to see him in the holidays. I think most people would call that living in separation. However, in terms of the way the film portrays this family, in the narrowest sense of the word, then, yes, he does have a relationship with both his children and his wife. When we first projected the rough cut on the big screen I realised that the films focus wasnt Billy and his conflict-ridden meeting with his father after an absence of so many years. It wasnt entirely clear to me while I was writing, but I discovered that the film was really about the family. This film is about the creation of and the need for a family; not a family in the traditional sense, however, with grandparents, grandchildren and children, brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, nieces and cousins and in-laws all coming together, but rather a get-together of all the important people who have accompanied you during the course of your life. This became clear to me in the scene at the end of the film, where they are all sitting having lunch on the veranda of the lakeside house. Billy starts telling his story, everything works out for the best and he says: "Somehow, we have become something of a family after all". But then, Jaqueline, who is the least happy of the entire group, suddenly reveals what a disaster her life has been, adding that what she has experienced here is something shes always dreamed of and shes happy to have known it, even for the space of just a few days. She also adds: "Not everyone can have a family". Past - Present - Future In your film there are a number of "big topics" that are broached in passing, such as art, religion and then what I would call the main subject of the film, time. The film brings together individuals at different stages in time. Adam says at one point, if he could just unite the past, present and future in one piece of music, that would be it, the best he could ever achieve. Perhaps this can be regarded as the quintessential statement of the whole film. It is also reflected in the narrative; I admired the way that everything is treated in a practical, everyday way, even though were dealing with abstract concepts. I didnt explicitly set about making a film about time. When Adam says this in his interior monologue, I didnt think of it as a way of interpreting the whole film. Something that concerned me more when it came to the subject of time was ... I was determined at all costs to make the film in 1999, at the turn of this century or the millennium. I wanted the film to open in the year 2000. I had to make a great deal of sacrifices to realise this goal. I might have been able to raise more money for this film if I hadnt been so determined to make it in 1999. I wasnt able to raise any public money because the committees would have made their decisions after the completion of the film. The only source that might have worked out was the Filmboard Berlin-Brandenburg, which was in a position to make a decision straight away, but they had no money left. Hanns Zischler and the Solar Eclipse There are several moments in the film where a reference is made to the past; for a start, there are all the women in Adams life. Stories from the past are always cropping up. One wonders how much of it has remained and how it has an effect on the artist now. During the scene of the solar eclipse, the subject of time is beautifully interwoven with the spoken word. Things just seemed to come together. I wanted to focus on the year 1999; this is why the war in Kosovo and the solar eclipse are mentioned. Our big problem was that we werent sure if we would be able to see the eclipse. It wasnt in the script because there was no way I could have known that I would be making a film on this particular day. Once we had finished working out the shooting schedule and we knew that the solar eclipse would happen on either the fifth or sixth day of the shoot, we thought wed put it on the call sheet: The only scene that lent itself to the eclipse was the scene which was written as a boat trip, in which Adam and his two children go fishing. I decided that if the eclipse was visible, we would film their dialogue on a landing-stage and they could all look at the eclipse through their glasses. Moreover, the story about the eclipse that Hanns Zischler describes in his interior monologue is something that Hanns actually experienced. When we came to record the interior monologue, Hanns made it up, just like that, on the spot. I should add that, when Hanns Zischler read the screenplay he saw it as a self-portrait. So much for this being a portrait of Rudolf Thome - its not like that at all! Hanns Zischler sees himself reflected in this film just as much as I do. Its a great stroke of luck that Zischler the actor is playing a role with which he is able to identify. I must say I find it rather touching when he says: "When I was fourteen I saw my first solar eclipse. They told me that when I was sixty I would see my next eclipse - although for a boy of fourteen sixty is ancient and quite unimaginable." This is such a beautiful comment on the passing of time. Apart from the fact that Hanns Zischler gives such a wonderful performance, he is so perfect for the role because one remembers him in different incarnations from all your earlier films. He was twenty years younger when he appeared in "Berlin Chamissoplatz". There was a bit of a hiatus in our professional relationship because, after we made "Tarot" I said to him: Hanns, I wont ever make another film with you. And Ive kept my word, until now, in "Paradiso". As soon as I had the money, Hanns Zischler was the first person I rang. He agreed to play the part immediately. I just asked him if he would like to do something like this and whether he had time. He did and he said yes. Then I asked him if I should tell him the story, and his response was: "No, theres no need to. I know you." Then we met the next day, for the first time in ten years. It was a very harmonious meeting. After he read the script he sent me an email saying how much he was looking forward to playing this role. It would, he said, be a great challenge. Bank Manager Marquard Bohm Casting Marquard Bohm was a similar case, I think. One remembers him as a very young man in your early works - in "Detectives" and "Red Sun". Hes thirty years older now. And it shows. There were probably other actors who would have made a better bank manager. I did take into account the fact that Marquard Bohm might not appear entirely convincing as a bank manager, but it doesnt matter. He is Marquard Bohm. He is what he is and thats all he needed to be. There was nothing I could do to change that. Eva and the Seven Women Adam and his wife Eva seem to have a rather special relationship. She is his current wife, his last wife ... What is it about their relationship that makes it work? She accepts him just the way he is. Theres nothing else she can do about it. I think shes a very interesting character in the film; the way she behaves towards the other women, for instance. She is so very relaxed and tolerant - something that is by no means par for the course. Actually its rather complicated; she behaves differently towards each of the women. She is very unfriendly and even insulting towards the youngest woman, Marion, with whom Adam obviously had a love affair while she was pregnant with her daughter. But this changes towards the end of the film. At the end of the film the two women embrace and Eva invites Marion to stay for lunch, thus settling their particular conflict. The other woman with whom she has a problem is Berenice. After Adam exerts himself doing some rock n roll dancing with Berenice, Eva has to patch him up again, and this is when she reveals a touch of jealousy by saying "Thank God shes a nun". And she also says very pointedly: "You overdid it dancing." Why is Berenice a nun? Just as Jacqueline is still upset somewhere deep down inside because things didnt work out with Adam, so too does Berenice still bear the scars of her relationship with him. She admits this openly in her prayers in her first scene when she says: "I still love him". Possibly, when she split up from Adam, she became a nun out of desperation. This begs the question of Billy. I never heard of a nun with a son before. Perhaps he was already at school. Billy cannot have lived with her once she had become a nun. Thats why he was so angry. His father didnt look after him. And perhaps even his mother didnt take care of him long enough. Theres one scene where Billy says: "My children mean everything to me." To which Adam replies: "I cant say that about me." Berenices relationship with her son is not without its difficulties either. When the two meet again for the first time, they dont even greet each other. Close to the mike This was the first time that you had made use of an interior monologue. I find the way it is spoken rather interesting; it seems so intimate. When I was working for the Forum during the Berlinale once, the man who was supposed to read the German translation of a Godard film didnt turn up and so I offered to do it instead. I noticed that if the microphone was held close to the mouth and you spoke rather quietly, you had an incredible influence on the audiences mood. I remembered this when we were recording the monologue and wanted to recreate exactly this sensation. The interior monologue is an artistic device which is actually anathema to all your earlier works. I often toyed with the idea of using it. The first film I really considered using it on was "Study of an Island". But I didnt dare to. The older I get, the more courage I have to do certain things. An Email for Joschka Fischer In the film Billy writes an email to the Federal Republic of Germanys Minister for Foreign Affairs, Joschka Fischer. My first reaction is to read this as an ironic gesture. Partly, yes. Its a bit bold, too. I could have put any number of names there and it would have worked equally well. It is a good way of characterising Billy. During the bus journey, Billy explains that he used to be a real protester and that hed faithfully attend every single demonstration. Joschka Fischer was just the same when he was younger. And hes someone who has also evolved over the years, from a revolutionary to Germanys Minister for Foreign Affairs. Trying to Preserve Something Why was it so important to mention the war in Kosovo in your film? In the film, the world outside is reflected by two important events: the war in Kosovo and the solar eclipse. I even risked being historically inaccurate in order to get them both in, because the war in Kosovo was from February to June and the eclipse was in August, when the war was already over. However, in retrospect, you dont really notice these things. In fact weve almost forgotten this war. But as soon as you see footage of the war on television you are transported back again in time. Just the voice of the newscaster of the time - Dagmar Berghoff, who has now retired - has the same effect ... I think thats wonderful, I just love it. Ive done it before; in my film, "The Philosopher", theres a scene in which one of the women reads the newspaper headlines at breakfast, saying Strauß (former CDU politician) does this and that. When the film opened, Strauß had already died and so this gave the scene a rather strange effect. In "The Secret", after the death of the man who calls himself Jesus, Adriana Altaras stands at the window and listens to Lutz Bertrams breakfast show on the radio. Lutz Bertram was Radio Brandenburgs "breakfast director". He was just brilliant. They fired him because of his Stasi past. Im very fond of things like that. In "Berlin Chamissoplatz" and "Diary" you can see what Berlin looked like when the Wall was still there. That fact alone makes these films historical. Absorbing whats happening in the world outside the film automatically gives a film an historical component. Since this film is about time, this is of particular importance here. Ive been spending quite a lot of time at Potsdamer Platz lately, because thats where the festival is and Ive had things to do there. My bank also moved from Stresemann Strasse to Potsdamer Platz. This area has now become my stomping ground, so to speak. I must admit that I like going there and Im looking forward to filming there one day. Im really happy that Im experiencing the way that something completely crazy and new to Berlin is evolving. One only has to walk a few steps to the underground and then turn around and look back at the buildings; that cityscape, that image - its incredible to see something like that in Berlin. If I were to film that, Id feel right in the middle of everything thats going on. As one gets older, one sometimes feels that there are so many innovations that one is being left behind. As long as I can still enjoy such changes then I know Im not old enough to die yet. How did you select the footage from the war in Kosovo? They were the only extracts for which German television, ARD, held the rights. All the rights for other Tagesschau excerpts were held by Serbian television. I was first sent the footage on VHS. There was a sequence on this tape of an interview with Joschka Fischer, broadcast during a news programme. Joschka Fischer appeared as a video insert and was not sitting with the interviewer in the same room. I would have loved to have used this, but this scene wasnt on the Super VHS tape sent to me for filming. It would have been great to have Joschka Fischer in the film in this way but, regrettably, we didnt have the time to order the tape again. It just wasnt possible. I wrote the screenplay between 20 April and 20 May; pre-production was from 15 June to 7 August and we shot the film from 7 August to 10 September. The whole thing happened so incredibly quickly ... A Sleepwalker in the Internet Looking back on your films, its possible to observe various ways of using computers. In "Closed Circuit" it was fairly primitive; computers resurface once more in "Seven Women". And in "The Philosopher", the philosopher is taught how to use a Mac. In "Seven Women" there is a message from the father which comes out of the computer, portrayed in a comparatively simple fashion. In "Paradiso" however, people are sending each other emails. This time I tried something Id never done before: I turned the entire development phase of the film into a public event by publishing the results of the four weeks of scriptwriting on the net every day. Ever since "Tiger-Stripe Woman Waits for Tarzan" and "Just Married" were shown at the Berlinale in 1998, Ive had a homepage, which has grown and become more and more extensive. Its a great opportunity and I also find it a practical way of keeping all the relevant information together. Putting it all on the net seemed the simplest thing to do. Whenever I have to look something up, I simply glance at the homepage; its all there. In the beginning it was only written in English, then I added German and, last year, French. Then my graphic artists suggested improving the look of the homepage and making the structure a bit more logical; I said that from mid-April onwards, I could even write my new screenplay live on the net. They were really excited by the idea and so I said, lets do it. The new design for the website was ready at the same time as I started the scriptwriting. It was a huge experiment; I didnt know if it would be good for my writing, because you do need solitude when you write. To go public and enable everyone to read everything straight away is taking a great risk. Above all, I didnt know whether I would be able to think of something; it really was like taking a big gamble. I could have just said, I cant think of anything and simply stopped uploading. There was always that option. But, on the other hand, one does have a sense of professional ambition and there is a great desire to pull it off. I also realised that it was fun and it really wasnt difficult at all. I felt just like I did when I used to write film reviews for daily newspapers. I would have to finish a review by half past eleven or midday and then take it over to the editors office. With the script, I had to have something ready to upload at half past five, and so thats what I did. The reactions, or rather, the number of people who visited the site got bigger and bigger and that gave me an extra kick. Its a bit like when a film opens and theres a long queue of people outside the cinema. Of course youre delighted, because you want a great many people to see the film. So I kept on doing it - even during the shoot. I propose doing it in future too, perhaps Ill even develop the idea a bit more. With this film, I only told about eight people I knew pretty well, but many more joined them and began reading as well. I think that next time Ill publish it properly; I may even do it in English at the same time. There are an awful lot of people visiting the site from abroad, strangely enough. Would you say that your solitude was interrupted in a positive way by this? I didnt forfeit my solitude. Its a very strange feeling. You are all alone, just as if you are in a monks cell, but because of the internet youre slap bang in the midst of the rest of the world. I dont allow anyone to phone me while Im writing. I just dont answer the phone. Even my wife and children can only contact me by fax. A fax doesnt interrupt your daily routine or the rituals you need to be able to write. But a telephone call is just too much. When Im writing I live a bit like a sleepwalker - and you shouldnt talk to a sleepwalker either. Doesnt this increase your concentration when you write? It increases the pressure. And because of the increased pressure, the concentration increases, too. However concentration is always there, you cant write if youre not alert. You wont have any ideas. And thats why I like to write, why I love writing even; sometimes almost more than filmmaking, because its less tiring. And because of these moments of concentration, the one or two hours (you really dont have more than that on any one day) in which you forget everything and the whole world outside just disappears. The only thing that exists is what youre doing, the scenes youre writing or creating in your mind there and then. But the rest of the time Im also writing, too. Things are always occurring to me and, in fact, Im always working on things. However, that pure moment of absolute concentration is very short indeed. You obviously try to avoid all form of distraction. You appear to need your isolation. I cant work otherwise. Ive tried to write a screenplay here in this apartment. I even re-decorated a whole room in order to do it, but it just didnt work. I really need total isolation. A Park with Thousand-Year-Old Oaks Was it a difficult shoot? The two films I made back to back in 1997 were a piece of cake in comparison. Our problem was the number of actors, all of whom had other engagements during these five weeks. The organisation ... was a gigantic feat of logistics. I had absolutely no say in the matter any more. I just did what the production team told me. I simply filmed, mechanically, what they wrote on the call sheet. I was pretty wiped out afterwards. We had to jump backwards and forwards; one scene from the beginning of the film, another from the end, and work with different actors all the time ... it simply wasnt possible to do it any other way. Irm Hermann was making another film in Munich and had to fly hither and thither four or five times; Guntram Brattia, who played Billy, was appearing on stage here in Berlin; Cora Frost wasnt even here for one whole week. It was crazy. There were several things I would have liked to have done again, but it wasnt possible. For instance, in the town where we stayed during the shoot, Stavenhagen, where the writer Fritz Reuter was born, there is a park with thousand-year-old oak trees. I went there one morning with Hanns Zischler before we started the days shooting and it was quite incredible. If I had known about this park then I would certainly have set a scene there and it would have been so wonderfully appropriate. My graphic artist wanted me to take a still of Hanns Zischler and Cora Frost with a tree in the middle, but I didnt have the time or the energy. But one only has to stand in front of these trees and imagine that they were already fully grown when Charles the Great was alive. And they are still growing. The Prediction Another scene I really liked and thought was very ironic was the scene with the fortune-teller. Youre not really sure how serious its meant to be. She stands for the future, because shes making a prediction. I like the use of sound in this scene, too. You get involved, but you dont really know what to think of it. Does he take it seriously? In his interior monologue Adam calls it hocus-pocus, but theres no need to believe him. On the one hand, it is of course a reference to "Tarot" and this is why "Tarot" is written on the sign on the caravan. I like the scene very much where the three women are waiting for him outside. I love it when Lilith places her hands on top of the painted hands - its something Godard might have filmed thirty years ago. The idea came from the actress, Sabine Bach. She just did it while we were setting up the lights and I said: wonderful, thats how well do it in the scene. The fortune-teller scene is very complicated; perhaps its not so easy to see everything thats gone into it. Inside the caravan, the fortune-teller tells him - and we hear this - that he will meet someone and that his life will change a great deal; they may even be a new woman. When he comes out of the caravan and is asked what was said he doesnt tell them this part, but when Eva, played by Cora Frost, looks at him he goes over to her and strokes her hair in a comforting gesture. This gesture contains what weve already heard inside the caravan. On the other hand, he tells them things he was told about his artistic career that we didnt see or hear; for instance that he will be famous - albeit after his death. Im inclined to read this prediction in terms of the end of the film, with reference to the child. Exactly! Thats exactly what I thought. The last scene of the film is very special. The film could have ended the moment all the women had left and he was alone again. But then we see him digging up something in his garden, followed by the title: three weeks later. I introduce a tangent to the narrative. But most importantly - and this happens so quickly - Eva comes to visit Adam for half an hour to conceive a child. I didnt show the love scene this time. We see them both lying in bed and then theres his interior monologue, which suddenly takes on a new role, because he tells us about something from the point of view of the future. This shot, with them lying in bed and the camera moving very slowly towards them is rather like a moment of timelessness, almost of eternity. Of course it also refers to the tarot sequence, where the fortune-teller reads Adams cards and says there may be a new woman in his life. At the end of the film, there is indeed a new woman - his daughter, Sarah. |